by Grammar Girl
In the United States, we always put periods and commas inside quotation marks, but twice in the last week I’ve seen writers break this rule when confronted with a quotation that ended with a question mark and also needed a comma after it to make the whole sentence work. Here’s an example from this week’s Grammar Girl podcastand article about Christmas carols:
The Christmas carol we’re going to tackle today is “What Child Is This?”, written in 1865 by William Chatterton Dix.
Omit the Comma Before an Attribution
Although it’s not exactly the same situation, the AP Stylebook says that when you’d put a comma at the end of a quotation before the attribution, but the quotation ends in a question mark, you should omit the comma. (“Merry Christmas,” Squiggly said. “How many days until Christmas?” Aardvark asked.)
Keep the Comma After a Title
The Chicago Manual of Style editors make a similar recommendation for attributions, but take a new stance on titles in their newest edition (16th edition, section 6.119): they recommend keeping the comma when a title ends with a question mark or exclamation point, as in the example above from the Grammar Girl podcast. Therefore, according to Chicago, which addresses the question most directly, the best way to write the sentence is as follows:
The Christmas carol we’re going to tackle today is “What Child Is This?,” written in 1865 by William Chatterton Dix.
It just looks silly to put a comma right after the question mark and inside the final quotation mark. The comma didn’t exist in the quotation when it was originally said. The pause implied by the comma comes logically after the quotation, not as part of it.
I agree. It looks silly and I cannot understand the logic of putting the punctuation inside the quotation marks unless it is part of the original quote.
I agree with Algot. Any punctuation associated with a quote should, IMHO, be inside the quotes, but ONLY those associated with it. If a quote IS a question, then it’s only logical (I hate to bring that into the equation, but, again, logic) to have the question mark inside. But if the quote is NOT a question but is included IN a question, then the QM should be outside the quotation mark. In other words, any part of a quote, inside; not part of a quote, outside.
I’m curious whether you are both from Britain (or somewhere else outside the U.S.). The trickiness with punctuation in this sentence results from the standard American style that requires us to put periods and commas inside quotation marks.
A style which makes no sense at all (and I’m from California)!
I’m from Texas–>Illinois–>Maine–>Massachusetts.
Styles have often been defined by academics trying to lay down something consistent (perhaps to make the style easier to teach). If clarity of meaning is the intent, however, then style should take a back seat. Following up on your curiosity, Mignon, I certainly hope that American academics/journalists have not decided to be American instead of British more for the sake of being different.
Another viewpoint on this is to avoid logic in English class. Searching for “punctuation make mine illogical” gives a lot of links to requotes, but I think I found the original: http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Verbal-Energy/2011/0627/Punctuation-Make-mine-illogical
Theoretically, the comma needs to be there to set apart the phrase that follows the quote, but it does look weird, so I often leave it out.
I like the Chicago construction — ?,” — but I’m wedded to the AP Stylebook. The AP’s ?” reads like the end of the sentence.
I would avoid the dilemma by rewriting the sentence: Today we are going to tackle a carol written in 1865, “What Child Is This?” by William Chatterton Dix,
Of course. A writer would rewrite that awkward sentence without a second thought. A grammarian might haggle around with it just for fun.
Sarah, I agree that reconstructions is often best, but yours doesn’t avoid the problem since, under normal circumstances, there should be a comma between the title and “by [author]“. A better rewrite would be “Today we are going to tackle a carol written in 1865 by William Chatterton Dix: ‘What Child is This?’”
Oops. Hit a comma instead of a period at the end of the sentence!
Sarah, your rewrite still needs a comma after the question mark, since the phrase “What Child Is This?” is both appositive and non-restrictive:
Today we are going to tackle a carol written in 1865, “What Child Is This?,” by William Chatterton Dix.
A better rewrite might be:
Today we are going to tackle a carol written in 1865 by William Chatterton Dix: “What Child Is This?”
Sorry! I didn’t see Bunny’s reply till after I posted — almost the same as mine!
Yes, I agree with you Arlene. I was trying to do this too much on the fly with grandchildren around pestering me.
This issue that you are describing has always perplexed me. Now I will follow either one of your suggestions. I’m studying Spanish now, and I haven’t figured out their system yet.
So you’re saying it depends on which style guide you follow? There isn’t a hard and fast rule?
Well, a hard and fast rule in this case would mean that a comma CANNOT appear outside the quotes, no matter how much it might seem strange to include it within; that’s just the way it is. Whether one uses AP or Chicago is a matter of preference, but either would be deemed correct. (And this is similar to other questions, such as whether or not one uses a comma to set off the final item in a list – journalists don’t but other writers often do – and either is correct as one is consistent in the choice.)
IMO, it doesn’t really matter what we think “looks silly” or not; thus, until/unless a rule is officially changed (which does sometimes happen over time), we need to follow it whether we want to or not. In that regard, the quote with the comma outside the quote is wrong, pure and simple – and writing in that way shows an author’s ignorance – and either AP or Chicago is right. Omitting the comma altogether makes the sentence read awkwardly so, really, Chicago’s option is best. For what it’s worth, that’s what “looks right” to me as well. But, again, the correct version is not what looks right, but what IS right according to the rules as currently defined.
Ouch! I feel like a student in a society with corporal punishment. You have just verbally smacked my knuckles with your handy ruler, Tina.
I believe that the stylebooks are designed to provide consistency in publications of a particular organization. Since we’re discussing two styles which are in opposition to one another, neither one can be seen as “the rule” for those of us outside both.
I do understand that my work might be edited (if not rejected) if I were to submit to an organization requiring one of the styles. AP is a style for journalists. Perhaps the limited line length has something to do with style choices.
I don’t think that comma belongs inside the quotation marks, regardless of the question mark’s presence. Only the song title should be inside the quotes.
This is one of the few times that I’m feeling disgruntled and just about turned off to a subject having to do with language, but needing to place the comma within the quotation marks is disappointing. I will do my best to remember and be correct, but it doesn’t satisfy; I’m just hoping to get used to it. Thanks always for the pointers, Mignon, and to the interesting responses from the others. (Should it read, “Thanks, always, for the pointers, Mignon?” or should it be, because I’m quoting myself, ‘Thanks, always, for the pointers, Mignon’?)? Wow! I just completely confused myself.
That last example just looks wrong.
Oh, good grief! Let’s sing “Jingle Bells.”
The U.S. convention of omitting the comma when a concluding question mark exists would seem to dictate omitting the comma altogether in this application as well. Happily, even the Chicago Manual has finally relented and now recommends the comma, but unfortunately it has put it on the wrong side of the quotation mark to suit me. It has done this for the sake of consistency with U.S. style, and it should not have done that. I’m with the CMOS that the comma is needed, but I’m off the train when they place it inside the quotes. What the heck; Since we have to make an exception to U.S. punctuation conventions to use a comma here at all, no matter which side we put it on, we ought to put it on the side that promotes clarity and doesn’t look silly, neither of which worthy goal is approached by locating the comma between the question mark and the quotation mark. Your mileage may vary.
Holy cow, where’s the Tylenol?
Can’t agree with Chicago. The comma is not part of the song’s title, therefor does not belong within quotes.